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From The Sunday Times

March 2, 2008

Patriot missiles: Iraq Veterans Against the War

After Vietnam, American veterans testified to the atrocities they witnessed. Now soldiers who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan are about to do the same

Ariel Leve

Some of them will be okay. They will live with the secrets. They can dissociate from what happened in combat because it was part of the job. It was what they signed up for. They will keep the secrets out of duty – the silence is part of a code, and they honour that code above all else.

But for others, the secrets they keep are like a poison, slowly releasing toxins of shame and remorse. Who can they tell anyway? They talk to each other – other veterans who have seen what they’ve seen, done what they’ve done, and who can relate to the burden of carrying these secrets for the rest of their lives.

In 1971, the protest group Vietnam Veterans Against the War gathered at a hotel in Detroit. More than 100 veterans talked about the atrocities they had witnessed in southeast Asia.

The event lasted for three days and was named Winter Soldier after Thomas Paine’s famous article. “These are the times that try men’s souls,” he wrote of the terrible winter of 1776, when Washington’s ragtag, demoralised army turned the tide of the War of Independence.

The Vietnam vets, spurred on by the court martial of Lt William Calley, who had ordered the infamous My Lai massacre, wanted to turn a tide too – against public opinion, to demonstrate that the execution of hundreds of innocent villagers in 1968 was not an isolated incident as so many believed. The Winter Soldier event received little coverage in America, but was the subject of an internationally acclaimed documentary of the same name.

This month, for four days in Washington, DC, beginning on March 13, there will be a second Winter Soldier gathering – 37 years after the first. Organised by the protest group Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW), US veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan since the 9/11 attack on New York will testify about their experiences. They will present photographs and videos, recorded with mobile phones and digital cameras, to back up their allegations – of brutality, torture and murder.

The veterans are not against the military and seek not to indict it – instead they seek to shine a light on the bigger picture: that the Abu Ghraib prison regime and the Haditha massacre of innocent Iraqis are not isolated incidents perpetrated by “bad seeds” as the military suggests, but evidence of an endemic problem. They will say they were tasked to do terrible things and point the finger up the chain of command, which ignores, diminishes or covers up routine abuse and atrocities.

Some see it as their responsibility to speak out – like Jason Washburn, a US marine who did two tours in Afghanistan and one in Iraq; Logan Laituri, a US Army forward observer in Iraq; and Perry O’Brien, an army medic deployed to Afghanistan in 2003. They believe that, as veterans, they are the most credible sources of information. They say they were put in immoral and often illegal positions. They will speak about what they saw, and what they were asked to do.

Jason Washburn, 28, grew up in San Diego, California. He always wanted to do something to make a difference, and he enlisted in the US marines in December 2001. He wasn’t itching to go into combat, but he wanted the training.

He fought in the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003 where, he says, he met little resistance. Most people were surrendering.

“There were massive amounts of artillery strikes before we even invaded. We saw the results of that. Streets full of bodies – women and children – body parts, extremely indiscriminate. I’m talking about rolling through villages here, not military encampments.”

He was told there was a military structure in one village. “I didn’t see it. I didn’t see any army uniforms. Or weapons. All I saw were civilians.”

Washburn speaks slowly and with obvious discomfort. This was his introduction to Iraq.

“I still believed everything we were force-fed: weapons of mass destruction and possibly even a nuclear weapon. We felt, like, we’re going to go in, overthrow this evil dictator and give these people some peace, finally. We thought we were doing a good thing.”

Over the course of his three tours, there were more home raids than Washburn can remember. He explains how it worked. “Usually it was based on a tip – we’re told someone in the home is an insurgent. We would pick up people who had nothing to do with anything, keep them locked up until they came up with something.”

He is glad that he didn’t witness some of the techniques used to get them to talk. “That’s not something I want on my conscience.”

It was not a scientific process. Most tips came from people with personal grudges. Washburn and his platoon would kick down the doors in the middle of the night. He was warned not to be complacent. There could be weapons in the children’s beds. In all of the home raids, too many to count, he never found children with weapons. They would take the father away and they never knew what would happen after that.

By the time Washburn served in Haditha he was on his third combat tour. He was there on November 19, 2005, the day of the massacre when 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians were killed, including women and children.

“My squad was doing medivacs out of the town. I was not there to witness the shooting, but I know many marines who were.”

It was a squad in his unit that went on the rampage after their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device (IED).

“I have a lot of feelings about this incident. A friend of mine from my first two tours was in that squad. He was the guy they gave immunity to to testify against the squad leader.

“The people on the ground are looking at serious prison time. Like life. The people who were giving orders were only relieved of command. And I don’t think that’s right.”

Washburn says Haditha was not an isolated incident. “It’s the one that just happened to be uncovered.”

The establishment view is that war is hell and terrible things happen for the greater good. That killing is necessary. That there are those individuals acting on their own who will always smear the honourable actions of the military – men like Washburn, traumatised by war, who are emotional casualties whose testimony is to be mistrusted. Some regard him and the Winter Soldiers of 2008 as traitors for daring to question their commanders and for prosecution of the war.

But there are too many like Washburn to shout down. Many of the orders that combat soldiers were given were not written – but they were understood. At the Winter Soldier event, veterans’ stories will be corroborated by other veterans; backed up by the volume of testifiers who have witnessed the same things – in different units, years apart and in different countries.

There will be up to 100 veterans and, at present, 80 of them have submitted testimonies. Most will be enlisted men and women: privates and sergeants. They have been made aware of the consequences of taking part. Not just that they are likely to be denounced by their fellow veterans, but the psychological and perhaps legal consequences they may face by admitting to witnessing, or even perpetrating, war crimes. The National Lawyers Guild, an organisation of civil-rights attorneys, has volunteered to offer advice. Mental-health professionals will also be on hand to offer counselling. Organisers stress that the goal is to hold the policy makers accountable, not their immediate commanding officers. Nobody is permitted to name anyone below the rank of captain.

After the hearings, all the testimonies will be entered into the congressional record. There will be a live video stream on the web. There will also be panels of journalists and scholars to provide context and history.

Perry O’ Brien, who served as a medic in Afghanistan in 2003, is one of the Winter Soldiers on the verification team, which will ensure the testimonies are watertight, lest falsehood undermine the message. The order that O’Brien’s team is hearing most from the testifiers is the “shovel order”.

“Anyone carrying a shovel or any sort of implement that could be used to bury an IED could be considered a target,” he says. “After dark, you can shoot anyone who is outside. Or anyone who puts anything on the side of the road can be considered a target. You won’t find it in writing, but it’s an order indicated to soldiers.”

If not in writing, how can it be proven? “If we have enough soldiers testifying, it will be.”

Washburn says the most dangerous job in Iraq “has to be a taxi driver”. He tells two stories of taxi drivers being shot, both innocent victims. One driver was deaf and didn’t hear the command to halt. The other was at a checkpoint in the Haditha area.

“It was the mayor of one of the towns who was driving, and he was shot and killed. They found out after they shot him. My squad had to apologise to the family. We paid reparations. I don’t know the exact amount. But let’s see: money or a dead husband and father and mayor? People weren’t happy about that.”

During Washburn’s first Iraq deployment in 2003, his unit was told to capture a “rabble rouser”. “We kick down the door and all we find are a few women holding babies and a couple of kids. We were ordered to take the babies away and put sandbags on the women’s heads, tie their hands behind their backs, put them on their knees facing the wall. Here I am zip-tying these women, and my buddy is standing next to me holding these babies asking what do I do with these kids? We stood there, like, oh shit, what do we do? The squad leader came in and shouted, ‘Everybody is bagged and tagged – everybody!’ So we did it.” The babies were put down on the floor. After a few hours everyone was untied.

Inappropriate and immoral actions weren’t just aimed at Iraqi civilians. There was frequent hazing – the mistreatment of soldiers by their comrades. Some were exercises in pure humiliation, common in most military units, like singing I’m a Little Teapot while others stand around laughing. But some were brutal physical punishments, such as callisthenics in a sleeping bag with a gas mask on in scorching heat.

“It’s one thing to do 20 push-ups. It’s another to burn us to the point of exhaustion in combat theatre. There were guys that tried to speak out about it and that made it worse. That would get punished more.”

The futility of speaking out was bolstered by knowledge that complaints would get as far as the commanding officer of the company and no further. “They kept everything in-house.”

Another incident he describes was a step beyond hazing. He and another marine had had a disagreement. The punishment was that they were tied together – and sent out on patrol.

“Outside of the camp, in a war zone tied together, patrolling? Insane,” he says.

Washburn’s anger comes from a feeling of betrayal. “I thought I was signing up to do something honourable.

“What happened at Abu Ghraib,” Washburn says, “is those orders came from the top. If the policy makers and the commanders can dehumanise their own troops, why wouldn’t they dehumanise the Iraqi people?”

So far, the most vocal opposition to the Winter Soldier event has not been from the government, but from pro-war groups such as Vets for Freedom, the largest veterans’ organisation in America.

Their executive director, Pete Hegseth, a veteran who served in Baghdad and Samarra with the 101st Airborne Division, has criticised the Winter Soldier event. In an article in The Washington Independent, he asks:

“Did your company commander tell you to shoot women and children, or to maximise casualties? No! We don’t do that. To talk about systematic brutality is essentially indicting the military as being complicit in war crimes.”

But, as we shall see, there are ways to encourage illegal actions other than direct orders.

Hegseth suggests that speaking out might have more serious consequences: homes in the Middle East have internet access, this kind of information will reach them and affect the attitude towards US troops still over there. But Perry O’Brien doubts that speaking out will foster more anti-American sentiment in Afghanistan and Iraq than the killing of civilians and the dismantling of the infrastructure. After serving in Afghanistan for eight months, there was a slow revelation that triggered his shift.

“Everything that we were doing seemed almost designed to create more terrorists. To turn people against America. I couldn’t understand how we were liberating anyone. But I could understand how an Afghan person who was ambivalent about America could easily become an extremist based on their interaction with American soldiers.”

Resolute pro-war organisations such as Gathering of Eagles are gearing up, getting ready to make their presence felt. They are chartering bus-loads of protesters to show up at the event to confront and harass the “traitors”.

The veterans who will be testifying at Winter Soldier are prepared for their integrity and credibility to be called into question.

Before anyone can testify, they must go through the verification process and be interviewed by a team of combat veterans whom they hope will be able to instinctively detect lies. IVAW is particularly vigilant since Jesse Macbeth joined in 2006 and represented them publicly at various events. Macbeth’s accounts of military service as a veteran of Iraq were false, which he admitted in federal court in 2007.

Since then the organisation has demanded proof of service, and every member must have a DD-214 – their Pentagon-issued personal-service record, which proves where and with whom they have served.

Members are asked to complete a detailed questionnaire. Under the heading Killing or Wounding Noncombatants, Prisoners or Unarmed Combatants, they are asked: “Did you witness or participate in any of the following: Civilians hurt or killed at checkpoints? Purposeful killing of civilians or unarmed combatants? Killing or wounding of prisoners? If yes, was this unit SOP [standard operating procedure] or common practice?”

Some other headings include: Mishandling and Mutilation of War Dead; Torture or Abuse; Rape, Sexual Assault or Harassment; Theft or Fraud.

When the testimonies begin on March 13, we shall discover how damaging or revelatory their stories will be. Perry O’Brien has confidence in the process. “Someone coming into our organisation and trying to pretend they observed something they didn’t – they can only maintain that for so long.”

Once the stories are told, each is to be researched by interviewing other members of the soldier’s unit. The verification team has recently decided that anyone fabricating their experience or pretending to be a veteran will be handed over to the authorities and charged with violating the Stolen Valor Act, a law signed by President Bush in 2006.

Perry O’Brien admits that he had hero fantasies. He was born on March 24, 1982, and grew up on a small island off the coast of Maine. After two years studying philosophy at university, he decided to enlist in the army as a medic in 2001 – two weeks before 9/11. It was a coming-of-age-ritual, influenced by the movies. He had the romantic idea that he wanted to save lives.

He did not come from a military background. His father works at a hardware store and his mother writes and illustrates children’s books.

In January 2003, O’Brien was deployed to Afghanistan for eight months. While he was there, he had many experiences that made him uncomfortable. Several times he witnessed an Afghan civilian die on the operating table after treatment from a mobile military surgical unit. Rather than prepare the corpse for the family, O’Brien witnessed the surgeons and the medics use the body to practise on.

“One doctor said, ‘Come up and feel his heart!’ This is what a heart feels like.’ ”

Half the platoon, if not more, participated. Daniel Paulsen, 27, was there and corroborates this story. There are photographs as well. Someone had grabbed O’Brien’s digital camera and taken photographs of the heart and the medics walking around and poking it. These photographs were taken for fun.

Eventually the chest of the corpse was closed up. “It was a total violation of our medical oath to use a corpse for medical training,” says O’Brien. “What’s particularly terrible is that these were all doctors that had practices back home – they were familiar with the law and the Hippocratic oath. There was such a huge disconnect between the way they treated Afghans and the way they treated American patients.

“When Americans died, the corpses became these sacred objects that were treated with tremendous care. There was this solemn funerary attitude around them. When an Afghan died, it was [as if they were] treating them like they weren’t human.

“My goal is to expose that these things are happening. And that they are the result of military leadership – part of an unofficial policy of dehumanisation.”

In 2004, while still on active duty, O’Brien attended a protest at Fort Bragg. There he met Mike Hoffman (a founder of IVAW) and joined the organisation shortly after leaving the army. He felt relieved. “Suddenly I knew that I wasn’t the only veteran who was questioning what I had seen and done.”

Kelly Dougherty, 29, is a co-founder and executive director of IVAW. In 1996 she enlisted in the National Guard as a medic while she read biology at the University of Colorado.

On January 10, 2003, she received a call; she had been transferred to a military police unit – and she was being deployed to Iraq.

Dougherty was opposed to the war and surprised by her deployment.

In February 2003, she arrived in Kuwait and then moved to Iraq in March. Her unit was stationed in the south near Nasiriyah, where she often did convoy escorts and patrols.

“You put it out of your mind when you’re over there. And then you get back and reflect on it…

“The soldiers and marines are just doing their jobs, doing what they were trained for or what they were told to do when they got over there. Things that seem really horrible just become routine – and they are implicitly or explicitly condoned, or encouraged, by the commanders and the policy-makers.”

The offices of IVAW in Philadelphia are humble but busy. The group now has more than 700 members in 49 states, Washington, DC, Canada, and on military bases overseas.

I meet Logan Laituri there one afternoon and we sit down over a soft drink to talk. He has a gentle and sensitive manner. His enlistment wasn’t a patriotic stand, but more of a pragmatic decision. He didn’t know what else to do.

He became a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne Division in Fort Bragg. “I had no accomplishments outside the military. I didn’t feel that I would be missing out on much.”

There was also a financial incentive. “Every soldier knows that you earn a crap-load of money in combat. Above and beyond my pay cheque I earned $800 a month – and all that’s tax-free. And everything is paid for in Iraq. You can save every single penny. That’s a lot of money you can save for your future.”

He was deployed to Iraq in January 2004, having switched to the 25th Infantry Division. When Laituri got to Samarra, they kicked down the doors of a building and found a police officer in uniform. “Through his interpreter he was telling us that he’d been waiting, and he had all the records. I thought to myself it was great initiative and it displayed insight.

“We handcuffed him and someone took it upon themselves to punch him in the stomach – what made me feel worse was watching it and not doing anything about it.”

As he talks, Laituri seems visibly troubled that he stood by watching this man beaten up. And he admits that so many of his feelings of being in Iraq are wrapped up in what he didn’t do: “What I saw happen and I didn’t say or I didn’t correct. I survived at the expense of Iraqis. I could have said something.”

But the fear of being isolated from the platoon prevailed. Beating up prisoners, abusing the bodies of Afghans, innocents shot dead in the crossfire of fear and threat – these things get lost in the mayhem of war – but other acts, if they become institutionalised, can “try the souls of men” and cannot be so easily dismissed.

Laituri was in Fort Irwin, California in May 2006 during a pep talk at the National Training Center. He alleges that a commander made a speech to his company, and that he “made it clear to us that if an innocent person was shot he would stage a scene to protect us”.

The explicit message was: “We would make sure there was a weapon found at the scene.”

Units go into combat believing that they will be protected from any repercussions. They feel like they have a licence to kill and often they do.

In 2007, the officer was relieved of his command after a death on June 23 last year in the vicinity of Kirkuk. He is not currently a suspect and was never charged – but two soldiers who were under his command have been charged with premeditated murder.

Last month a top army sniper testified in military court – under immunity – that he had ordered a subordinate to kill an unarmed Iraqi man, then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to back up a false claim of returned fire.

But who is ultimately responsible: the individual or the officer? The combatant or the culture? And why is it always the junior ranks who are charged?

On a February morning at a cafe in Brooklyn, New York, Perry O’Brien is explaining the difference between the “book way” and the “real way”, and the significance of the “three-stomp signal” that is used to differentiate between the two.

“If someone is giving a briefing and they stomp their foot three times after what they are saying, it means ‘disregard what I just said’. For instance, ‘Make every effort to avoid civilian property damage,’ stomp stomp stomp – [means] ignore that. The idea is that when you get back [from combat], anything that you did the book way can be spoken about – but not what was done the real way.”

It isn’t just between the book way and the real way, he says; it’s become between the honourable way and the immoral way.

Perhaps even more tragic is that now, for many, these lines have blurred. “People join the military wanting to be honourable. They follow a code of conduct – they have to. It’s what separates them from mercenaries.”

The common denominator that links all of these veterans’ stories is a profound disillusionment about the war. All of these soldiers signed up with a belief that what they were doing was noble. Despite the lessons of Vietnam, or maybe because of them, they wanted to participate.

“The book way was we treat everyone the same…” Perry smiles and taps his foot three times. “You are ordered to do things that are clear violations of our conscience and what we know to be moral. It’s not even what’s prescribed by the Geneva conventions. It’s what every human being knows to be right and wrong. We’re asked to do things that violate that and told it’s about the war, but you can never tell anyone because we need to protect them from that.

“I think that certainly it’s our duty to protect American civilians from the physical reality of wars. That’s our goal. To prevent the American public from having to participate in war and get hurt and put their lives at risk. That’s what we volunteer to do.

“But I don’t think we’re protecting America if we’re not telling our stories and keeping what we do secret.”

The things in this article absolutely occur, I am a Marince Corps veteran and I am for the war. Its WAR people, bad things happen. This isn't the first war and we arent the first country to do it, the only difference is that now you civilians know about it

james, boston,

the hard fact is that if ONE person can be detained for as long as the govenrment decrees with no charges, and can be tortured and can be denied council, weve opened pandora box. for if it can happen to one it can happen to anyone. have we lost sight of that fact?. what if it were one of your family

rowan, jackson, hinds

The only job of the soldier is to figtht the enemy. It is not the soldiers job to murder steal lie or do anything to dishonor himself, his friends, his family or his country. Be brave and dont do them.

willihudso, lincs, lincs

Hey Britons,
I am an American and I am profoundly ashamed of what is done in my country's name. I did not vote for George W. Bush, and I do not support Operation Thrash Iraq.

Lest you get too high and mighty, though, let's remember where the term "concentration camp" first arose. Kitchener, anyone?

mupledge, tampa, usa

To Answer Phil Mann, Gordon Brown was in the White House the day the Pope was in Washington, telling George Bush that the world owed George Bush a debt of gratitude for taking on the global war against terror. I am total supporter of all left wing politics in the world - so what gives with LABOR?

Nuala Kavanagh, Alhambra, U. S.

Of course most Americans are never going to believe this stuff. It's impossible, because we are raised and educated from earliest childhood to salute the flag and not ask questions. Face it--WE are the butchers of the world., the destroyers of freedom and of life.

Bob, Davis, USA

if these accounts are true then how can Britain justify any form of continued relationship with America? Unfortunately our currently in-power politicians havent got the guts to stand up and be counted. Not in my name.

phil mann, newcastle upon tyne,

Margo, Dayton, USA
Greg, Houston, USA
...Put yourselves in the shoes of these poor civilians and combatants fighting american militants and trying to protect their women and children from these american butchers.
Then tell me what you would do!
WE ARE ALL HUMAN. Have you no shame?

Mahmood Khan, London, UK

The Haditha massacre was proven to be a big lie as it was based on a video given to a reporter by a terrorist. Our liberal representative of the people stood and accused the soldiers of murder. He is the one who should have been put in jail along with the reporter. GOD bless the soldiers & USA.

Margo, Dayton, USA

These accounts are true, if you doubt it join up and see for yourself. A lot of vets coming back aren't combat troops, like mechanics and supply line, to them not much seemed out of order. If you were in north Iraq it seemed pretty quiet most of the time. So many didn't see things, others did.

Phillip Lamoureux, Lansing, USA

Mild stuff (even IF true) compared to the actions of the butchers our military is pitted against.

Greg, Houston, USA

If all of these crimes were committed by these soldiers, why weren't they tried? Aren't they setting themselves up for prosecution by telling these stories? The real answer: these are tall tales told by people who never witnessed any of these things. The NYT is badmouthing the USA, as usual.

Patrick C., Irvine, USA

How many actual Iraqi and Afghan combat Veterans have returned home and settled into civilian jobs, hundreds or thousands? If the incidents that are highlighted in this article are so wide spread, why haven't more reports been forthcoming? Surely fear isn't part of the equation that keeps them mute

Scott, South Carolina, US of A

It's amazing how many ill-informed commenters there are on these news articles. Monty Python couldn't write more ridiculous material.

Kevin, Wichita, KS, USA

" ‘Everybody is bagged and tagged – everybody!’ So we did it.The babies were put down on the floor. "

Does this statement mean the mighty US Army killed babies in cold blood ? Can you please say so instead of using this military slang ?

A. Khan, London,

Admiring the IQ and Sense and Truth
of what the first commentor said , I want to repeat it : True soldiers have no time for it.

Further : "Making airborne in our planets atm/sprotospheres trillions of (google) Depleted Uranium Molecules, . . .
that's the real crime against your own children.

Emile, Toulon, France

Hear Americans, You are not alone

2 days ago the only non embedded dutch journalist said on national dutch TV that the dutch soldiers deliberately killed women and children.
He said it 6 times and none of the guys at the round table concerning a commanders son death . . even reacted
What a Shame.

Emile, Toulon, France

You can't take the comments of one disgruntled Marine and use that to generalize what all of the fighting forces are like. The vast majority of us have been here numerous times, served honorably, and made a positive impact in the lives of the Iraqi people, no matter what the final outcome might be. I wouldn't recommend coming here firsthand to see the progress that is being made, but don't draft all of your opinions from what the media feeds you. They are notorious for taking a liberal slant without having a clue what they are talking about.

Sean, Denver, CO

Many of those in winter soldier who 'testified', (in quotes because they were never sworn under oath), were NEVER IN THE MILITARY! They were 100% fraud! Liars as much as Kerry saying he spent Christmas in Cambodia. Facts are pesky aren't they?

Mike M., Boston, Mass, USA

The dilemma for many seems to have been " I was (only) following orders"...now where have I heard that before?

Officers have a particular duty to stay within the law, born of the fact of their leadership. Failure to do so has meant an attrition of the considerable hope of many Afghanis and Iraqis that the forces might win over the people to their cause.

Torture is a phenomenon passed on from the veterans and higher-ranking officers of one war to another- it is an infectious disease of the mind, almost always suggested from above, normally by bureaucrats of the administration. British officers passed this from 1948 Kenyan 'Mau Mau' conflict to Malaya to Northern Ireland in the 1970's. Great guerrilla fighters like 'Mad' Mike Calvert had no time for it, and rightly saw it as at best a dangerous distraction from the real job of fighting the enemy, and at worst a way of swelling the enemy's numbers. Those who suggest it are enemies of stability, peace and justice, and of their own side.

D Ramos, Lewes, UK

Soldiers, warriors, the military have a code of honour, it includes only fighting other armed military fighting forces. Only cowards ,psychos murderers fascists perperate torture and massacre on civilians, women and children, If you are brave and in a brave enough army you would not do these things.
Dio not disgrace yourselves, do not disgrace your uniform, do not disgrace your profession, do not disgrace your country.
Will you tell your grandchildren or would you be ashameed of your cowardly truth.

Soldier be brave

willi, lincoln, notts

Seriously some of these commentors are military fascists, who just want to hide the truth, and pump there self righteous patriotism, calling these honest and moral winter veterans as "traitors". No YOU guys are the traitors to the truth and to your country, and pure cowards. Just following your commanders around like gupies. what is wrong with being anti way, surly that is better than wanting to pillage every country in the name of "eradicating terror"? Oh I forgot, military usually equals "sheep".

S, Merseyside, UK

How long ago was it that the (dangerous) clown George Bush boasted of "Mission Accomplished"?

Neil, Gloucestershire, England

Let's get real-this is a war of occupation of other people's lands and oil by a country that has invaded and destroyed countless other countries in the last 50 years-Why should Iraq be any different? This is about power and brutality; nothing less

Paul, Auckland, NZ

The author of the piece starts with testimony that is really rather innocuous, like alleged mistreatment of the bodies dead afghans by medics after the medics had failed to save their lives, and jumps to far-fetched conclusions about US policy on the basis of the 'atrocities' he just substantiated. Like the Abu Ghraib scandal, there's really a lot less there than meets the eye.

PJ, Washington, DC

This is my third time here in Iraq and there has been some bad stuff happen but not as bad as you people are saying. the reason people get shot at checkpoints are because they need to they dont pay attention if you cant see a military checkpoint then you dont need to drive. there are certain s.o.p's at military checkpoints. so how do we know what is in a car or not if a car runs a checkpoint then we are protecting ourselves. when you people drive a car and you come up to a red light are you going to run it or are you going to pay attention because if you dont your going to get hit by another car or something. think about. a red light is on a pole you have to look up at it and a checkpoint is on the ground. all that facts are common sence things. so stop crying and support what is going on until we all come home.

sgt. l, Killeen,

Piffle! You call that abuse, you should read stories from the pacific war, not to mention what the jihadistÂ´s do in this one, but o yea thatÂ´s right WW2 is considerd a good war.

Albert , Vaxjo, Sweden

No one ever discusses the strategic reasons for going to war. They may be unquantifiable, unprovable, but also impossible to ignore. Governments do not have the luxury of the sort of morality that citizens do. Governments are there to defend not only their citizens lives but such "immoral" things as energy security in order to protect a civilized way of life.
The questions that need to be asked are about energy security. I doubt that even pacifists would be prepared to return to the dark ages. If anyone thinks Russia ,China ,India is going to be "nice" if oil becomes scarce you are likely to be wildly mistaken. Nor can it be assumed that we could always trade our way out of energy scarcity.
If you are not prepared to live an entirely sustainable life with no recourse to any benfits of civilization you cannot claim the moral highground.
Roll on renewables. Hopefully in the future we can do better in all sorts of ways.

Chad, Chelmsford, UK

You almost never come across an ex-soldier who has seen combat and still thinks war is a good thing. Unfortunately, sometimes the use of force is necessary. I'm sure when Saddam was on the gallows he regretted not conceding to all UN demands. Spilt milk.

Alan, Edinburgh,

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering

Pike, Darwin,

Thank you for covering this story. Hopefully many people will take the time to watch this historic event and begin to question those who hold the power. Sadly, the US military is not leaving Iraq anytime soon.

With many members of Congress, judges, and sheriffs running un-opposed in the recent elections (at least here in Ohio and presumably most other states), "change" is an illusion and a joke. Democracy in Iraq modeled after the American system was never a good answer. Although it includes many positive aspects (womens rights, open political races, and free media), the fact that we can not even acheive these things in the United States can explain why we were a bad model.

According to the Constitution, the federal govt is severly limited by giving the powers to the local and state while also creating the Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch to monitor the actions of the Executive. There was never even a thought to form states in Iraq. They wanted a national rule system

Eric, Columbus, OH

It's been 2,359 days since George WMD Bush said he'd catch the 9/11 'Conspirator' Osama bin Laden 'Dead or Alive???'

USA! USA! USA!

Brian Fejer, Albuquerque, The U.S. Homeland

America needs war.

It feeds the industries, and buys politicians. There are plans for the next 100 years already being drawn up. The men on the ground are pawns being ffed their lies like a public that does not know foreign policy.

Iraq's resourcecs are to be controlled under patents for 40 years, and that's the reason we are there.

And going nowhere...

F.S.Summers, NY.,

I can only imagine the courage, the integrity, the great sense of honor and duty that motivates these brave few. These are the soldiers we honor when we speak of a good and decent America! The cowards are those who have seen and participated and yet remain silent. Hold the line. Say nothing.

Choosing to remain silent is never the answer in the longrun. Choosing to do the right thing in the face of great difficulties, now that is honor. Stand tall!

Know that Jesus Christ knew every sin you'd commit, long before you were born, and He hung on that cross until every last one was paid for IN FULL! Hold your head high - Jesus saw it all 2,000 years ago - run to Him now if you haven't already, and He WILL give you rest. You'll never forget, but the Lord will lift the tremendous burdens you're carrying. He will use you to lead others, if you'll let Him.

God bless the few, the proud, and the honest!
Where are our US diplomats? Why do YOU remain silent?!

Dagny, washington , dc

Bravo to the courageous veterans for documenting these CRIMES, for having and acting on a decent sense of morality, and for not covering up their buddies' and "superiors'" CRIMINAL acts.

The American war against Iraq & Afganistan has been one gigantic crime spree from beginning to end. It's to our shame that we have allowed all this plunder, death, and destruction to happen. Shame, shame, shame for our government's brutal, inhumane interventionism, oil occupation & colonialism.

God help us, that we are not repaid in kind.

Carl, Trumbull, US / CT

We Americans been killing Iraqi people for the last 16 years, it's a trillion $$$$$$ a year buisness, soliders are consumables. (not counting the 8 year Iraqi and Iran war). Americans will leave Iraq only questions are how many million people we kill, and the number of soliders die? The number of soliders that get killed or maimed is up to the soliders. Iraq is Americas killing field. We can improve our smart bombs and practice our urban war, soliders job is to learn how to occupey a country with the minum loss of life to their unit.
The political prosess will never end this war, our congress has brought our foren policy home , it can be used on the American people. Wating for the American people will take to long,$$$$$ and VETs for never ending war will keep marching soliders out in the deasert to satify their P.T.S.D. This war will only end when the soliders quit shooting.
Allowing a U.S. base on your land you are part of the war crime in Iraq,move it du
mikes

Mike W Stuart, Kirkland, America Washington state

If any of these allegations are proven to be true, I expect the military to name a scapegoat. (remember Lyndie England?)

The whole Iraq War is hopeless and depressing. Civilians like myself don't know who to trust and we'll never know which side of the story is the truth.

Support our troops! (stomp) (stomp) (stomp)

Jay, Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Nice propaganda piece. Try that on someone who doesn't know any better. John Kerry lied before Congress in 1971 during the so-called "Winter Soldier Investigation". Kerry denigrated his fellow veterans with fabricated tales about atrocities he never witnessed, and hopped into the political sack with Jane Fonda, and the V.V.A.W. (Vietnam Veterans Against the War); a wonderful organization that voted on whether to commit political assassinations during a November 1971 meeting. He also traveled to Hanoi, shook hands with the VC, and offered his support. His picture still hangs in the Ho Chi Mihn museum. He shouldnâ€™t have been a Senator, let alone Presidential candidate.And as for the Iraq vets "against the war": I AM AN IRAQ WAR VET. The IVAW brings shame on themselves in an attempt to drag all veterans into the gutter of their anti-military/anti-war â€˜activismâ€™. Thereâ€™s no honor or bravery in collaborating and joining ranks with an organization of traitorous malcontents.

SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET), Lorain, Ohio

Google:

1. Gulf of Tonkin Incident
2. Operation Northwoods
3. Operation Bojinka
4. USS Maine Explosion
6. USS Cole bombing
5. Reichstag Building Burning Incident
7. Pearl Harbor Released Documents

Do you self a favor and find out why we get into these wars at all. If the public wern't duped everytime, maybe they wouldn't be as many wars.

Andrew Towell, Hartlepool, England,

Omerta, the mafia law of silence, is not honourable.

With Serbia and middle eastern countries, it seems so clear to everyone: If you want to regain your national honor, turn over your war criminals for prosecution.

Just as those who truly love Serbia, those who truly love America will do what it takes to restore its honour.

Preaching the practice of Omerta is not the answer.

Keith T, Winnipeg, Canada

Interesting timing - 16 March is the 40th anniversary of the massacre at My Lai. I will be there to remember the 504 unarmed civilians, mostly women and children, who lost their lives that day.

Very few people in the US listened to the Vietnam veterans who testified at the 1971 Winter Soldier hearings - the dying went on for another four years, and many of those who testified were excoriated for having stood up and told the truth.. I sincerely hope that people pay attention this time around.

And Dave from Delmar, do a little research before you denigrate the "draftee" Army: My infantry platoon of 26 had 8 college graduates, and the balance, except for two individuals, had a high school diploma and/or some college, and we were not exceptional. Folks who went to Vietnam didn't go because the alternative was a dead-end job at McDonald's; we went because they believed, we trusted, and as a friend of mine said, we "had our patriotism spent like chump change in a penny arcade."

Tom, Hanoi, Vietnam

I know enough Americans to know they do not generally sign up with their armed forces out of a sense of duty to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, or murder.

No soldier has a duty to commit war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, or murder.

No soldier has a duty to conspire to protect those who ordered, encouraged, or committed war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, or murder.

For the United States military, and the USA as a nation, to earn back its lost honour, it must prosecute members of its military for crimes against foreigners.

This is not to say that every allegation is true, but where there are grounds, an honest effort at prosecution must occur. Reasonable penalties must be handed out to the guilty.

One obstacle is the overly harsh criminal penalties Americans hand one another. In few of these alleged cases would justice require more than 3 years behind bars.

Keith T, Winnipeg, Canada

Now why am i not surprised?? So many people knew of the consequnces of war but Americans are only seeing it now!! Bush is a war criminal for creating an illegal war which has cost the lives of hundreds of millions of people.The iraqi people are paying the price for 9/11. this is retribution and revenge, nothing else.

Bilal, London,

I agree with Jem. It's almost as if the US create wars to set up the next Oscar winner.

GrahM, EL, SA

Having been there multiple times, most of what these guys say sounds pretty farfetched. There are people who will make up stories like this to affect a "PTSD guy" persona because they think it gives them status, or because these days people have been brainwashed with the idea that veterans are supposed to be messed up.

If half of what these people testify to is true then they should be thrown in jail, because quite frankly its disgusting. Under the military code of conduct and UCMJ you not only do not have to follow an immoral order (like stack sandbags on top of babies heads) but are obligated to disobey and report it to a superior. And to say they didn't because they felt pressure from the rest of the unit is also fairly bogus, because that is some seriously sociopathic stuff--and the vast majority of those serving are very decent people and wouldn't stand for it.

You get a better quality of people with an all volunteer force (now) instead of a draft one (Vietnam).

Dave, Delmar, NY

When I was in the military we also had the real way and the book way. The context of one incident I know of was different - to tourniquet a wounded comrade or not - but the mixed messages, confusion and onus on the squaddie at the sharp end was the same.

DG, Dover, Kent

Members of the Philadelphia chapter of Iraq Veterans Against the War marched from the constitution Center to Valley forge Second day of the march ( March 2, 2008)
Listen, donate, SUPPORT them!

1- Philadelphia Winter Soldier March, part one :
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=S-BPqnG-D04

2- Philadelphia Winter Soldier March, part TWO:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mRZ5boPHY

Monique Frugier, Ardmore, PA

somehow, I can't get quite as worked up about the mistreatment of corpses as I do about the indiscrimate bombing of women and children.

massive casualties and the disbanding of the military and police forces did far more damage than individual atrocities (I'm not suggesting they don't matter; far from it - merely that such testimony should not be required in order to prosecute those at the highest level who were responsible for the management of the war). the knock-on effect made the country less safe for everyone.

the war was mishandled from top to bottom. maybe you could say that in purely military terms, there were successes, but it was a one-sided fight. with victory on the battlefield assured, all of the effort should have gone towards making sure that we maintained the moral high ground. minimising civilian casualties and earning trust should have been the top concerns.

jem, london, uk

When will America learn? The cycle is constantly repeating itself since WW2 ended - Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq... each time, a new batch of fresh soldiers with an aggressive gung-ho attitude go barging into foreign lands for pride and country.... each time they come back, disgruntled, betrayed and psychologically tormented as they realise they fought for nothing but misery and heartbreak for people on both sides of a conflict.

Oh well, no point arguing... I expect to see war veterans who fought in Iran/some middle eastern country/China/etc. "changing their mind" on several occasions in my lifetime.

Howard, Manchester,

Iraq and Afghan vets should read "Conversations with Americans" by Mark Lane. It documents the Winter Soldier hearing during the Viet Nam war. The American public needs to know about the crimes committed (ordered) by the US military in its "crusade" against Islam. During Viet Nam the US public did not believe My Lai even happened. They need to know what is happening in their name, paid for with their tax dollars.

Homer, Chicago, US

If there weren't anti-war veterans, I would question the humanity of the people serving. Some may not be the real thing but the most anti-war people I have met have served themselves - to so many others there is the glamour and honour. Then comes the disillusionment. However, the details coming out are not exceptional for any war. Maybe with an understanding that that is what war is, that innocent people die, might make future wars more unlikely. People protect their own and that makes sense, even when it follows a perverted logic that comes with war. I expect though that a lot of this harsh reality will be too untasteful for some to bear.

Doubtful, I know, but

John, Knutsford, UK

Many of these accounts from so called 'vets against the war' have been proven to be lies or gross exageration. This is political hate mongering and what is presented should be looked at very carefully. No doubt the America haters wil love it and salivate over every word. Lies will become fact on the websites of the left extremists like moveon.org and thier pitiful ilk.

Viv, london, england

I'm a World War II Marine Corps vet, but that's not what want to talk about. I want to talk about my experience as a Refugee Adviser for USAID in Vietnam's Mekong Delta. I had the opportunity of seeing lots of atrocities. I knew many of the peasants who were massacred. I wrote a 826 page protest novel documenting the atrocities. For the past four years I have been trying to get it published to no avail.

Sheridan Louis Peterson, Windsor, Sonoma, California

If you actually read the article, they became anti-war activists, they didn't start out that way. Its interesting that you use their anti-war stance to question their motives. Its in their interest to make their accounts as horrifying as possible? That is a logical leap if I've ever seen one.

You could just as easily say that the horror of their experiences drove them to their views on the war, but its easier to dismiss accounts like this than to face the reality of what we're doing in Iraq.

Nick, Boston, MA

Thank God that there are real Americans that have the GUTS to tell the truth about the Iraq situation and go against the EASY way. Thats what this country is supposed to be like, not like the ancient Romans or Nazi Germany!!!

Mikke , LaPine, OR/USA

It's interesting that these accounts all come from the first year of the war; it shows just how unprepared the US Army and Marine Corps were for urban occupation duty. It's hard to switch mindsets from Kinetic Warfare (the 'kill 'em all' stages of the invasion) to police work in the space of a week, and it's things like this that helped make the first year and half of the war such an massive failure.
I don't doubt that things like this happened; they've been going on since the dawn of time. It is important to remember, however, that these guys are antiwar activists in addition to being veterans, and it's in their interest to make their accounts as horrifying as possible. This sounds like an indictment of their honesty, and I don't mean it to be, but In my experience when there are two versions of an event the truth tends to be somewhere in between.

Matt , Chicago, IL